tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590322.post5172664894462748481..comments2023-09-24T03:09:02.536-05:00Comments on Grace For Life: Church Membership or Biblical Fellowship? (Notes)Terry Rayburnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00722632954331009294noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590322.post-44359699627932771022009-06-30T23:44:32.319-05:002009-06-30T23:44:32.319-05:00Mark|hereiblog,
I appreciate your elaboration.
A...Mark|hereiblog,<br /><br />I appreciate your elaboration.<br /><br />As I wrote in my post, the "formal" aspect of membership is neither commanded in Scripture, nor forbidden. So I would give plenty of leeway to an individual church in deciding how specifically to handle that.<br /><br />I've been at church congregation "business" meetings where official members and "regular attenders" were welcome, but only official members could vote (say to approve a new elder, for example). <br /><br />Often people are surprised who is NOT an official member when the balloting is to be done, because the "regular attender" has been going to the church for years, actively ministering one way or another, and by every biblical measure looks like a member.<br /><br />I personally would view them as a member, biblically speaking (we may disagree there). <br /><br />Still, I couldn't say that the leadership was in violation of Scripture to have a "formal" membership, with only formal members voting, in the above example.<br /><br />Anyway, after the "formal membership" vs. "no formal membership" debate is settled -- unlikely, it seems :) -- I still think the more important question is whether there is spiritual intimate fellowship among the local members/attenders.<br /><br />TerryTerry Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00888533194435826837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590322.post-4287058847683303002009-06-30T23:27:02.266-05:002009-06-30T23:27:02.266-05:00Frank,
Thanks for your comments.
I agree that to...Frank,<br /><br />Thanks for your comments.<br /><br />I agree that too much minimalism regarding membership is counterproductive to the purpose of God for the local church (whether or not that was what SJC was advocating).<br /><br />I like your phrase "merely some administrative way". I don't believe many *intend* that to be the case, but it too often is.<br /><br />Blessings,<br />TerryTerry Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00888533194435826837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590322.post-32989074885062706982009-06-30T21:23:18.929-05:002009-06-30T21:23:18.929-05:00Terry,
Sorry if my comment was a bit obscure. I ...Terry,<br /><br />Sorry if my comment was a bit obscure. I thought my point would be somewhat apparent.<br /><br />I came here based on the twitter convo and your opening in the post seemed to be in-line with the twitter convo.<br /><br />Then, however, you go on to couch the discussion in terms of "lists". This is not what were been talking about on twitter.<br /><br />Since you mentioned there are no command for church membership lists in the Bible, I was following up with there are no<br />commands for statement of faith lists in the Bible either. But you do have a list of beliefs around which to fellowship, elect elders & deacons etc., correct?<br /><br />So, you're belief list (statement of faith) is no more or less biblical than formal church membership. <br /><br /><b>What is the purpose of your statement of faith?</b> <br /><br />Your answers under <b>three aspects</b> doesn't really explain what exactly you mean concerning church membership. I don't know anyone who practices formal membership disagrees with those aspects. For example, if you were to preach a sermon on church membership my guess is that you<br />wouldn't stand up quote those verses and sit down. [grin]<br /><br />Your conclusion then still does not address formal church member, the type we were talking about on twitter. You were really addressing those who simply<br />speak of such membership and then treat it as list of sales made or some authoritarian book of life. I agree that church membership can be abused and also reduced to some list. The same could be said of statements of faith which, in my experience, are rarely referenced or often used. This is especially true in non-confessional churches. <br /><br />That said, churches like mine (a 9Marks church) practice formal church membership of which a list or database is merely a side result. No one ever references<br />a "list" etc. We speak of membership and if someone leaves they become a former member who has moved their membership. Or, if disciplined, they become<br />an unrepentant sinner whom we strive to reach out to with the Gospel.<br /><br />I hope that makes more sense. I think you'd could do a very good job of contrasting those who properly implement church membership vs. those who simply<br />use it as a list rather than conflating the too.<br /><br />Grace,<br /><br />MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590322.post-1498308580021544102009-06-30T14:19:09.661-05:002009-06-30T14:19:09.661-05:00Terry --
I would own every word of what you said ...Terry --<br /><br />I would own every word of what you said here. It's exactly right: this is not merely about who's on what list but in what way we have joined together.<br /><br />Have we joined together in some merely administrative way? Or have we joined to Christ and therefore to one another -- as brothers and sister who are frankly sharing our lives together?<br /><br />If SJC's point over on Twitter was that "making a list" is too minimalistic to satisfy the Biblical mandate for those called out by the Holy Spirit, he'd be right. I think he's asking for something far more minimalistic still which misses the point of the church giving glory to God as a visible sign of His grace.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590322.post-41798645950398484302009-06-30T09:10:06.146-05:002009-06-30T09:10:06.146-05:00Mark|hereiblog,
I've read and re-read your co...Mark|hereiblog,<br /><br />I've read and re-read your comment several times, and I'm not sure what your point[s] is.<br /><br />If you're asking whether I'm knocking membership lists because they're ONLY lists without any substance, and thereby slanting my case...<br /><br />1. In many churches, this is exactly the case, unfortunately. The "list" means nothing except "I'm on the list".<br /><br />I attended First Baptist of Dallas, TX in 1980-81. They often declared themselves the largest membership church in America at the time with 20-some thousand "members". <br /><br />Many of them I'm sure were dead, and the sanctuary only held a couple (or few) thousand, so the "members" were obviously scattered to the four winds.<br /><br />The point was made even more silly when Billy Graham came that year to preach at First Baptist. He, to my surprise, declared that HE HIMSELF was still a member of First Baptist Dallas(!), though he hadn't been there for many years.<br /><br />This silliness is carried on in thousands of churches every week. <br /><br />2. Many churches operate without any lists at all, and are spiritual wonderful places, relatively.<br /><br />I recently re-read Alex Hailey's <i>Roots</i>, which detailed events in the plantation slave churches. They were unable (indeed forbidden) to read or write. Highly unlikely they had a list. But guaranteed they had a "membership".<br /><br />3. Yet I'm not really knocking lists <i>per se</i> at all. They have their uses, just as doctrinal statements have their uses. Both can, of course, be abused.<br /><br />What's missing too often, however, is a Body-life fellowship where there is a true spiritual bond among those on the "roll called up Yonder", whether they're on the official local "roll" or not.<br /><br />If I'm not addressing your actual point, feel free to elaborate.<br /><br />Blessings,<br />TerryTerry Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00888533194435826837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590322.post-15213200854390299332009-06-30T08:29:39.749-05:002009-06-30T08:29:39.749-05:00Terry,
I don't have much time, but I wanted t...Terry,<br /><br />I don't have much time, but I wanted to point out just one thing for now. Your use of Membership <i>Lists</i>. The term "list" isn't very helpful here. This tends to reduce and couch the issue from the other side to just a "list". <br /><br />Let me ask you: Do you have a statement of faith <i>list</i>? You know, a list that shows what you believe and fellowship around? Why?<br /><br />Is there a Scriptural admonition for such a list? Seriously, under what grounds to you have a statement of faith around which to build a local church, fellowship, etc.? Can't you see how this might be abused? What about those who might slightly disagree, but want to become an elder or deacon? Do you use your <i>list</i> to decide?<br /><br />:)<br /><br />MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590322.post-89775131127341462902008-11-29T09:07:00.000-06:002008-11-29T09:07:00.000-06:00Mark,"I have been the victim of similar types of c...Mark,<BR/><BR/><I>"I have been the victim of similar types of control in a former church..."</I><BR/><BR/>Me too. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. It's too common. Thanks.Terry Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00888533194435826837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590322.post-34254310923340531262008-11-29T02:01:00.000-06:002008-11-29T02:01:00.000-06:00Terry,Thanks for your reply to my post. Yes, by "...Terry,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your reply to my post. Yes, by "accountability," I was referring to an unhealthy, unbiblical amount of control, like what you said here:<BR/>"The Elders are not to expect obedience in personal household matters (e.g., how specifically you are to spend your time and money, what car to drive, where to live, whom to marry, etc.). In most cases, this amounts to authoritarian legalism."<BR/>I have been the victim of similar types of control in a former church, so I'm a little oversensitive now when anyone suggests any type of "accountability." The term doesn't first bring to mind a healthy, biblical definition for me, as you can probably understand.<BR/>Thanks for your reply.<BR/><BR/>MarkMark D. Vilenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16397392158425187057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590322.post-52363350774165225532008-11-27T10:50:00.000-06:002008-11-27T10:50:00.000-06:00...but I'll admit to being scared that I may be wr......but I'll admit to being scared that I may be wrong,the way I got hammered over at Pyro,etcPhilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14063611909779154899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590322.post-86848820108712309382008-11-27T10:47:00.000-06:002008-11-27T10:47:00.000-06:00I've looked now,and thanks very much once more. I'...I've looked now,and thanks very much once more. I'd ask you to pray that I may grasp it experientially. I don't think we can ever be sure we have real faith without this.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14063611909779154899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590322.post-49495759641166452102008-11-27T09:38:00.000-06:002008-11-27T09:38:00.000-06:00Haven't looked yet,Terry,but thanks very much. I n...Haven't looked yet,Terry,but thanks very much. I need to really get this subject and for real. 'Cos I know its the root.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14063611909779154899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590322.post-4976532644833799462008-11-27T09:29:00.000-06:002008-11-27T09:29:00.000-06:00I appreciate your comment, Phil.I've written a cou...I appreciate your comment, Phil.<BR/><BR/>I've written a couple pieces related to this that you might find helpful:<BR/><BR/>1. "If We're Under Grace, Why The Commands?" found <A HREF="http://www.graceforlife.com/2006/11/if-were-under-grace-why-commands.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>, and <BR/><BR/>2. "Loving The Law Without Being Under It" found <A HREF="http://www.graceforlife.com/2007/01/loving-law-withouth-being-under-it.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>.<BR/><BR/>Two related reasons why we are no longer under law are 1) we've died [in Christ] to the law, and 2) the New Covenant is "unilateral".<BR/><BR/>On the unilateral nature of the New Covenant, see <A HREF="http://www.graceforlife.com/2006/12/why-new-covenant-is-unilateral.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>.Terry Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00888533194435826837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590322.post-12034160096093758382008-11-27T08:34:00.000-06:002008-11-27T08:34:00.000-06:00Thanks for the older-and-wiser information,Terry. ...Thanks for the older-and-wiser information,Terry. Maybe you could do a post on the nature of the new covenant command, and how to relate to it before God,as regards not being under law,but under grace,as you describe it? Would be food for thought.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14063611909779154899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590322.post-85714125288917354392008-11-26T11:48:00.000-06:002008-11-26T11:48:00.000-06:00Mark,Thanks.The concern of my message here is two-...Mark,<BR/><BR/>Thanks.<BR/><BR/>The concern of my message here is two-fold:<BR/><BR/>1. The lack of true biblical fellowship in the local church, and<BR/><BR/>2. The existence of membership "rolls", or "official membership" in the local church which *replaces* true fellowship.<BR/><BR/>So, although I would agree with you that fellow believers are really the "church", and that we may and should fellowship with those outside our local fellowship...<BR/><BR/>The Scripture is quite clear that local "churches" (called-out assemblies) are to have Elders who are responsible to lead and guide the flock, and that the flock is indeed to be accountable, both to those Elders and to one another (even so far as to "obey" those Elders).<BR/><BR/>The limits to that accountability and obedience need to be biblically thought out.<BR/><BR/>Mostly they deal with matters of the local church assembly; its practices and policies; and matters of doctrine or behavior which affect the Body of believers (such as false teaching, or public unrepentant sin, for example). <BR/><BR/>The Elders are not to expect obedience in personal household matters (e.g., how specifically you are to spend your time and money, what car to drive, where to live, whom to marry, etc.). In most cases, this amounts to authoritarian legalism. <BR/><BR/>Likewise, the unbiblical idea, popular with some movements, of a "covering", where personal decisions are expected to be made or approved by one's "discipler", has led to much evil.<BR/><BR/>"Accountability" is sometimes abused by bad [authoritarian, unloving] shepherds, but good [loving, servant] shepherds should be able to expect some measure of [voluntary] accountability from their sheep.Terry Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00888533194435826837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590322.post-78849948682083614212008-11-25T03:45:00.000-06:002008-11-25T03:45:00.000-06:00Terry,I grew up being told I needed to be a member...Terry,<BR/>I grew up being told I needed to be a member of one church somewhere, mostly to be held accountable. Nowadays, some would call that being under someone's "covering."<BR/>I think that is a load of rubbish, to be blunt.<BR/>I love fellowship, but I don't think it's necessarily with one church (organization), but with fellow believers (who are really the "church").<BR/><BR/>Good article.<BR/><BR/>MVMark D. Vilenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16397392158425187057noreply@blogger.com